Not sure if anyone will see this for the reason that the last post was months ago. I think a free health care sounds great. But it doesn't work that way for me. I am a independent man who is a hard working college student working for my degree. Now like most students I am poor lol, but to be honest I do not want my government to mandate my health. The health care bill failing to be passed is no more than a protection for insurance companies. Everyone will have to buy insurance and if they dont there will be a $3,800 fine. Now if the government makes their health care system free I dont want to have a governement controlled health care. The government can't run anything else they shadow over so why do we think they can run our health care. Unfortunately I see euthanasia in our future if big brother is able to follow through with this. Also Americans eat very unhealthy, I try to eat mostly organic but everything here is genetically modified. So Americans will be the worse off of all countries if we had a universal health care. The private health care system we have right now is probably the reason why americans live past 50 years!!! I know that many of you I read in previous posts are for this but I do not want the government to run my life and look over my grandparents medical files to see if they are worth saving. I know that is a small picture of the extreme but thats all I see in what a corrupt government we have. Amphungus you said yourself that we are all about money. Yes our government only cares about money which is why they have proposed this bill.

I don't have enough fingers to count on my hands how many times me and my family have been rescued by universal healthcare here in Canada.

For example, when I was 2, I was wheeled to the hospital because I was being choked by my own tonsils.

When I was 4, my dad was in a car accident that he is still crippled from.

Last month my mom died of cancer.

A couple weeks ago, a dog bit my face, resulting in five stitches and scars that require lazer treatment by a plastic surgeon.

Before you start feeling sorry for me, think about how much all of these emergency visits, surguries, chiropractor appointments, chemotherapy and radiation therapies, stitches and drugs would cost to the uninsured American citizen? I can tell you right now, it would be upwards of tens of thousands of dollars.

Most uninsured Americans are uninsured because they cannot afford insurance. They cannot afford insurance because they are poor.

Worse, poor people are more prone to premature death, accidents, and disease than any other economic category. Case and point, they are the ones who need insurance the most, and meanwhile are the least likely to get it. In an advanced country like America, such a prospect is shocking. Even China is getting universal healthcare.

We can only conclude that poor people are not valued in American society. Right at the bottom rung of the capitalist structure, they truly get the shortest end of the stick. Aren't we all supposed to be equal, despite our class? Or is our worth as human beings AND our right to live ruled by how much money we have? Is this not the 21st century?

Back to my tragic life: were I not a Canadian citizen benefitting from our government-mandated healthcare system (which is also free for all citizens to utilise), and if I were instead an uninsured american; my sister, dad and I will have declared bankruptcy and moved to another city, abandoning our family, friends, and former life so that the three of us can start fresh. We would have been poorer than normal from the get-go of my suffocating when I was 2.

I believe that all people in the world have the right to live, because you only get one life. And I believe it is the governments job to insure all people within its power have the right to live. If that means you all have to pay more taxes, so be it.

And think of what universal health care can do? Sick children of poor parents will have access to heart transplants, surgury, therapies, free kleenex (I hear in some american hospitals, it's 50 cents a sheet!), that they otherwise would not have. It's a beautiful thing, even if it's "government mandated".

If you want better health coverage, pay for a better insurance premium. They'll move you up the transplant list and everything. Rich people will still be valued over the poor, with or without universal healthcare in the mix, because you can still buy insurance that will up the value of your life. So don't worry!

That's great and all, but you missed my point. Our government is not doing this for the benefit of the people. Its doing for their own pockets and for big insurance companies. The Obama administration does not care about us nor did the Bush administration. Like I said the bill Obama wants to pass will charge us a huge fine. They intend only to rid of the smaller insurance companies and leave behind the giants. I think a free health care for everybody is great, but not from the government. There are many problems right now in America. Mr. Obama and his predecessors ,yes I mean both Democrats and Republicans :0, have done many things to lead to all this. Oh its no longer necessary to back up money with gold, oh its ok to print fiat money out of thin air for bailing out a big corporate business. (obama is not the only one to do that bush did it as well) And our government took over our school system which ever since then America's rating is dropping. They think throwing tax dollar money at everything will make it work. Obama like many men before him want to this "universal health care". Oh that sounds great but wait its obama so its only going to be in the interest for the big insurance companies and of course the government. It will punish the small business owners. So amphungus I agree that universal health care is awesome and would be great. But your mistaken with what our government intends to do with its version of the "universal health care". This country thrived on the free market system but this is only the governments next step in monitoring our once free economy. Oh and the bill allows the government to not only require us to check in every year but the government will have access to our bank accounts!!! So people I think this debate of whether universal health care would be great or not cause it would be great. I think what we should talk about is whether we should let the American government take over another huge asset that will force us to lose even more facets of our 4th Amendment right!!!

I feel like you didn't really read my post, and I have no idea where you get your information.... but nevertheless...!

You're saying that;
a)Universal health care is awesome but
b)should not be handled by your corrupt government.

That doesn't really make sense to me. Firstly, I can't think of any governments in any country that haven't been corrupted by some degree power and greed. Canada has had just as many screw-ups in charge as America (coughBRIANMULRONEYcough) and somehow we have free health care.

So if the government isn't fit to handle universal health care, who's going to dish up? Private businesses aren't just going to start handing out free dialysis machines, insulin, radiation, blood transfusions and liver transplants. No matter which way you spin it, free health care is going to cost a buttload of money. We Canadians have anywhere from 20% to 45% of our income taxes deducted, due in part mostly to our health care system, and the vast majority are proud (and relieved) to do so because it's something solid we can depend on and everyone benefits from it.

What governing body in America would have been suited for overlooking health care if it's not Obama's corrupted one? Apparently no other group has been able to man up up until now. Let the government do its thing, America. Universal healthcare is just another marker of an advanced society. What harm could it possibly do for everyone to have just a few more human rights?

My information is in the bill itself. Section 163 says it would allow the government access to our bank accounts. Our country was founded with the hope of a small government, but since I would say 1913 our government has had an increasing role in our lives. And we are becoming worse off because of their interference.

This bill won't give us a few more human rights but instead take them away.

Could you provide a link to your source?

So it would be better if 45 million uninsured Americans ( http://covertheuninsured.org/content/overview ) went without insurance than if the government knew what is in your bank account? For groodness sake, what's in your bank account is just a number. Where did you hear this, I'm wondering? And so after a few minutes of internet sleuthing, I found out what the section 163 myth is about. here are some of the main points from this article: (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... -limbaugh/)
...

I've found another excerpt from "Twenty-six Lies About Healthcare Reform" ( http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/twenty ... t-hr-3200/ ), which I think is a pretty neutral source that debunks some of the rumours flying around about the health care reform.



It's pretty wordy, but the gist is that the government only needs access to your income tax records, which of course it has already. It goes on to explain why it needs access to these records, how it will use them, and the limitations to their use. *shrug*

Limbaugh is a tool. He is a republican noob who will say anything to support his audiences party. I understand the government wont be able to transfer the money for I read the actual bill myself (well in relation to this topic lol) but it will permit them to view most of your records allowing them to know how much you are costing the company. I dont like the idea of infringement of privacy just as the Patriot Act does which we were told was necessary to fight the so called "war on terrorism."

heres the link http://www.kfyi.com/cc-common/mlib/622/ ... 314906.pdf

I guess I meant to say is that to me universal health care would be nice in a perfect society with people who wont abuse there power. I may sound like a kook but I fear this will eventually lead to what many socialist engineers believe in that the elderly or unfit are a burden to the society and should thus take care of themselves not medicare. This is far fetched I know but there is I fear this movement in many governments for a eugenics system. Amphungus I'm curious but does Canada implement the Quality Adjusted Life Years policy? I heard Canada and the UK do.

Here is an interesting article I found awhile back

http://www.infowars.com/social-utility- ... dma-worth/

Curious to know what you guys think. Thx

This article is pretty radical; and I mean radical as in incredibly right-wing, using a lot of absolute statements, and saying a lot of far-fetched stuff without even bothering to supply us with a list of references so we, the readers, can do some back-checking on his/her research.

There are tons of rediculous claims made, but the one that really hit home for me was I don't think the author gets the point of universal healthcare. You see... it covers EVERYBODY. Old people have as much access to health care as they have to the local casino! There is no such thing as "too old" here.

I also really enjoyed how Obama's Public Health Minister is referred to has his "health czar". How nice.

Universal healthcare is not a form socialism. Universal Healthcare will not lead to eugenics or government-mandated euthanasia. It hasn't here in Canada. and wee've had universal healthcare for a long time.

As for the QALY, I looked it up on wikipedia and compared it to the article you provided and the two interpretations of QALY are night-and-day.

A severe over-rationalisation.

After some digging on google, I found out that Canada does use the QALY, but since I've never seen it on the news I can't see that it would be interfering with human rights. but I know from my experience as a Canadian that old people are not being offed or being denied health care due to their age. I also know that we do not practice eugenics and that only passive euthanasia is currently legal (passive euthanasia is when a patient refuses treatment, resulting in death). We've had public health care since the 60s (founded by a winnipeger like myself who is regarded #1 on the list of Greatest Canadians! [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Canadian])

I can't take credit for this, because I found it on the comments section of the article you've provided... but "You don’t think letting the uninsured poor die off isn’t eugenics? Are black people not the poorest and most uninsured?"

I understand there is no eugenics in Canada or in any country for that matter, but what if it could lead to eugenics. Here is an article from Newsweek saying it may be a good idea to start letting go of the elderly.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/215291/page/1

The elderly would be expensive for the social health care and thus due to economic disasters would have to be cut because they are not valuable to the society. You don't see this in the mainstream media. They only want people to know that Limbaugh is screaming that old people are going to die and then is denied that won't happen. But it doesnt deny the fact that it is on many's mind. Socialism is not good, it mocks individualism and family. Freedom of expansion would also suffer incredibly. But I guess its already taking a hold of our country since 1913.
Yes there are poor people in our country who don't have health care but it is a small percentage of our population. I have many black friends who are not poor and there parents are capable hard working individuals who support their family. They also have health insurance. Anybody can work their way to success does not matter who you are. The reason many are out of jobs is due to the economic crisis that was foreseen 20 years ago but nothing was done. Also many who are poor choose to let entertainment and personal desires get in between their success. If it was in better shape then this health care wouldn't be such a problem. I know there are those who are unfortunate but there are many organizations who take people in and take care of them. Not as good care from a hospital but it is something I think is better for the people than big brother. A universal health care would just put this country in even more debt and would help force the vaccinations on the masses. (Another concern of mine XD )

The idea of saving money by letting go of people is not new. Many professors speaking at universities stress to students on the need for this to save mother earth. The Rockefeller Foundation has funded many who favor this for many years. The idea is getting bigger it just hasn't been mentioned on mainstream media. Media is so controlled these days its a joke, they want to control and sell the masses only. I can't help but laugh when I watch CNN or Fox News.

Also the term "czar" has been used for these overseers before. Its not because of Obama or anything. But you can't believe anything Obama says which does not surprise me. He was supposed to end the war in Iraq but he doesn't. He was supposed to end torture, indefinite denial of jury and habeous corpus but of course he is allowing for it to continue in Afghanistan and around the world. It gave me ulcers when I saw him condemning it on mainstream media but then does not do anything to end the bill passed. He proposes to extend the Patriot Act. I don't trust him with anything. What I see is if this socialized health care bill passes, which probably has so many loopholes in it, our economy will probably collapse (not necessarily due to the health care reform bill) and people will be denied resources. The dollar is going to crash there is no doubt about that, its been in the works now for 20 years, but overall I think this is just another step for more control on the masses. More reliance on the government to take care of us. Which is not what the founding fathers wanted. They believed "Endowed with unalienable rights, among them are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
But some see that health care is under the right of Life now a days. Would you guys disagree with the previous statement or agree?

Old people WILL die... everyone will, one day. The article you supplied almost made me empathise with the idea of limiting funds to treating the elderly. I don't agree with the idea; if you want to keep fighting then damnit, keep fighting! but I do agree that death -- especially late in life, after a well-lived go at it -- is something that should be embraced with some level of confidence.

Socialism is just an idea. I can garuntee that America attatches such raging taboos to words like "socialist" and "communist" that neither will come to pass.
No percentage of poor people in the richest country in the world is a "small" percentage. Currently 9.6% of America is unemployed (according to google).
I whole-heartedly agree that hard work can get you anywhere' but the stats don't lie. In 2008, the white population had an unemployment rate of 5.5, while the black population had an unemployment rate of 11.4. ( http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat24.pdf ). I believe this is the result of racial bias in the workforce; not because black people aren't as hard working as the rest of us. White people have the power and the money and so they do the hiring; and those doing the hiring harbour racial biases and so hire white Steven than black Stephan.
Also many who are poor are poor because their parents were poor, and their parents were poor, and their parents were poor. also many who are poor choose to live on the streets rather than suffer abuse at home. Few "choose" to be poor... I personally believe poorness is a result of the inefficiency of our society, and not the inefficiency of people.
I can totally agree with this. Except for the big brother part. Do you considor yourself a conspiracy theorist, by any chance?
Forced vaccinations for the masses are highly unlikely unless you throw the constitution to the dogs.
The concept of killing off the elderly and terminally ill prematurely is horrible, but there's a point where there is literally nothing that you can do. If you're 90, and you're in a coma and you're not going to come out of it... what's the point of the cost of life support? Although I don't believe professors are telling their students to off themselves for the good of the world.
Me too! I watch them for the shitsngiggles.

The term "czar" is a snarky nickname meant to associate Obama and his staff with communism.

Bear in mind, he hasn't even been in office for a year yet. He is in the process of ending the war that Bush started. The crap that goes on in other countries is really not America's responsibility to begin with... and even if it were, what would be the course of action? Surely telling a country what they're doing is wrong is just going to start more conflict. If you don't trust Obama, who do you trust? Who would you rather have running the country? I personally would prefer Stephen Colbert.
"probably" has loopholes? How can you be so sure it "probably" has loopholes?
The founding fathers also relied on slavery to fuel the economy.
I don't know what "under the right of life" means, but I believe health care IS a right of life, ESPECIALLY if you're living in the richest freakin' country in the whole world.

Right lads, I live in Northern Ireland. Part of the UK.

Heres my input.

If it wasn't for Free healthcare i'd have died SIX times by now.
If it wasn't for Free healthcare my mother would have died alot sooner.
If it wasn't for Free healthcare my brother would have died from a simple infection.
If it wasn't for Free healthcare my family wouldn't be as well of as they are and i'd be living in a cramped appartment.

Alot of people are mixed up over, "Mehmehmeh, have to spend more money".
Well heres the way i see it. If Healthcares free because of YOU paying a little extra taxes and you have a problem with that? Why do you even bother saying you care about others? It's blatant lies. Thanks to my dad's tax paying (And soon to be mine ) people have survived horrible incidents. The NHS do a wonderful job, Quality over quantity? Thats all complete BS, the doctors here all do degrees before being allowed to even apply to be a doctor. They all know the score. I've been in hospital a few times, none of us like being there but i know because of other people i'm still alive. And not just the Doctors.

So next time you go into hospital because of an injury, just think that if you paid more tax you'd be helping to save people not as fortunate as you.

TBH you should be ashamed of yourselves for putting your money before other human beings. In the end money doesn't bring happiness, its family and friends. And i bet not all your family/friends can afford the insurance. =/

/Rant.

Hm well said Barmy. Here's a video that I thought some of you might enjoy about the Healthcare Insurance Companies that "cover" us:

http://pol.moveon.org/insurance_execs/? ... .ejAnx&t=1

Ok, I'd like to point out two things to you.

1. you're too late.

2 YOU ARE VERY LATE!

We in the netherlands have universal health care. When? 1954, with the economy and country starting to recover. No wealth, everyone had to start from the beginning, all money had to be checked, so for like a month (end 1945), everyone in the netherlands had the same amount of money. There were no rich to protest, the well...democratic socialist Willem Drees passed the law. And that's where you went wrong, in fact, you've been struggeling with this so long that you missed the moment. When the economic downfall ends, that is the time to pass some laws. You should have done it in 1931!
We have had this system for a long time, and apart from a littte crisis in 1980, it works fine.

We spent on health care: 8 percent, belgium 7 btw.
You spent on health care: 12 percent of your national income

This won't last long. Or will it? The longer you wait, the harder the stuggle gets. But this system of yours is failing. You can't do it alone. You need to find a combination between person and group.
Oh and something, when China starts buying, I'm sure you're into a huge problem. They won't accept dollars in the future. The have warehouses filled with dollars. You can't keep buying everything with new money.

Well...ok, I'm gonna say it.

THE EURO IS THE MONEY OF THE FUTURE.

your system is failing. fix it, or fall.

ok even after people have explain universal healthcare to me thousand and thousands times, and I still dont fully understand what it is about. so if it is basically free health care shouldnt they just pass it already? i mean when you get off to college and all, you dont get be on the same health insurance as your parents. you have to get your own right? but what if no matter where you go for health insureance they just dont give it to you. so when you get hurt you have to pay the loads of money it cost. The economy sucks right now! no one can afford to live with out health insurance. so if it was free then we wouldnt have to pay all the money, right? I know this is most likely not what the universal healthcare is all about, so if im wrong sorry, and let me know! but it is just what i think. and free healthcare can help a lot of families that are poor or in poverty, right?? im not sure, im just going to shut up now!